Airhead Toilets for REAL ???

[Brian]

I noticed that the liquid waste is said to be kept in bottles elsewhere. How is the solid waste disposed of? I hope you have a bigger head then I do if you have to remove a 5 gallon container of solid waste. I think I prefer to stop every few days and just pump my waste away at a pump out. No handling, no putting my nose over a weeks worth of stale urine and no looking at dehydrated cr*p.If it were legal to discharge in the Great Lakes, I would opt for a macerator (sp.) on my little 28.5

[Henry Rozanski]

Peggy, I spoke to a rep for the Airhead No-Flush toilets at the Atlantic City Sailboat show. It seems like a wonderful way to avoid the odors and mess of conventional holding tanks. Have you checked these out?? Let me know what you think.wwww.airheadtoilet.com 740-392-3642

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

All liquids must be drained off into containers that must be taken ashore to empty down a toilet...loads of fun foul weather. The system requires continuous power and a 3" vent stack. They admit on their own website (you have the link...go to the FAQ) that there's odor after each solids deposit, but it only last a few days. (A few DAYS???) And it costs as much or more than a macerating electric toilet and a Lectra/San combined...so why mess with peat moss and urine bottles when you can just flush it overboard?The December issue of Practical Sailor has a review of composting toilets, including the Airhead. I suggest you find a copy and read it.

[Jim Arthur]

It would be very interesting to hear from anyone who has practical experience with one of these. It is a pretty radical concept. Since we don't plan to go beyond the three mile limit, dumping is not an issue or an option.Jim

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

In both the river and in coastal waters. Whether you have the power resources to support a treatment device OR a composter is another matter.

[Steve Dion]

Henry:I think that these units are a better concept than a practical solution on a boat. I think that this would be a wonderful solution to a mountain cabin. It would be interesting to hear from anyone that has used one on land or sea!

[Fred Ficarra]

Peggie, I've been studying what you have to say about a LectraSan and it sounds good for our Hunter 34, Epitome'. Aside from the dimensions, where can I get specs such as plumbing routing and maintenance procedures? Raritans name on the web takes me to a software company. Thanks Fred

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

Raritan's full company name is Raritan Engineering, Inc...so you need to add "eng" to "raritan." I put the link below. When you get there, go to "waste treatment." The entire installation, operation and maintenance manual is on the site in pdf format...it includes the electrical specs and the plumbing specs. Pay VERY close attention. While you're on the site, I strongly recommend that you also spend some time reading the articles that discuss treatment.

[Fred Ficarra]

Thanks Peggie, it looks doable already. They show the discharge and it should work for us. Back to the site for study. Thanks again, Fred

[Geoffrey Trott]

Peggy,I responded to your comments about the Air Head Dry Toilet in the "venting" thread since for some reason the link to respond directly did not appear on my monitor. But I did get the link in the "venting" section. Perhaps because I entered through "archives". I managed to get the link this time though, I don't know why.In any case I have pasted my 1/26 my response below so this should put us back on track.Regards,Geoff Peggy,In review of your 1/25/2003 response to a question regarding the Air Head Dry Toilet I feel the need to clarify a few things:1. Regarding your comment about a few days odor: We've changed the wording on the website from the original since it was causing some confusion. Initially we said "a few days" regarding the odor. What we meant is that the feces itself only smells for a few days not the whole boat! The aerobic conditions take a few days however, since we have an internal agitator that shears the solid material and buries it a filtering effect occurs so one never smells anything but a musty odor out the vent stack and never anything inside the boat INCLUDING during use since there is a constant negative pressure. This is all apparent when we bring a tank with 20 to 30 solid uses to the Air Head Dry Toilet booth at Sail Expos. Usually we use it up till the day before our travel departure. The smell is insignificant and undistiguishable from decomposing leaves.2. Regarding your comment on the 3" vent: We've gotten more efficient with the vent size and can now go with a smaller 2"-2 1/4" vent but you can use a standard 3" vent. The hose is actually only 1.8" dia. 3. Regarding your comment to the effect that the unit costs as much as a Lectra San and a electric toilet combined: The cost of the unit is $795. We offer internet specials and show specials for less. I price Lecta San for $849.99 at Boat US and the electric heads seem to be $500 and up. And of course you know the costs of the fittings and hoses better than me. But I think I priced them once at $300 minimum. And of course there is the installation which means either time or money. Air Head installation is under an hour, that is after you've ripped all the old stuff out.4. Regarding emptying bottles in a storm: I think it is only fair to compare filled tanks to filled tanks. If you are in a storm and have filled tanks naturally the only thing is to empty overboard. The same goes for our urine containers. It could be argued that the LEGAL means of waste emptying is equally a chore whether you pump out or bring our bottles in to shore particularly if pump outs are not available.5. Regarding your question why would anyone bother with using peat... I will spare everyone the sales pitch and refer you to our website or booth at the next Sail Expo.And thank you for mentioning the the Practical Sailor ariticle. I find the review of our unit fair and accurate. Actually it was in the November 15, 2002 issue instead of "December". With a follow up letter by me in the issue afterward.Regards,Geoffrey TrottGeneral Manager, Eos Design LLC

[Geoffrey Trott]

Okay, I've pasted Peggy's response to my comments below from the venting thread. Sorry for the confusion.GTThanks for the clarification, Geoff Submitted by Peggie Hall/Head Mistress on 01/26 at 02:51PM regarding General_interest Although I wonder why you chose to post it in this thread about venting a permanently installed portapotty boat of in the discussion of your Airhead toilet. My information about the Airhead comes from your own website and discussions with the folks at Practical Sailor who conducted the tests of composting toilets and their published review of them. I think you misinterpreted my comment about peat moss. I understand fully why it must be used in a composter. That it's necessary to keep a supply of it aboard is a consideration in deciding whether a composter is the best choice of toilet for a particular owner and his boat. As for price comparisons, you need to dig a little deeper than the BOAT/US catalog for toilet and Lectra/San prices. The lowest price I've seen for the Lectra/San is $729 (Defender). I can be used with ANY toilet, so unless a new toilet is needed too, almost no addition expense. Manual toilets start as low $100...kits to convert existing manual toilets to electric average about $350. The L/S has to be within 6' of the toilet, and equally close to a thru-hull...12' of hose, a vented loop and some hose clamps are less than $100. So the total cost of installing a Lectra/San can be as low as $800. However, there is no one-size-fits-all “best toilet” or system, only the best toilet for an individual boat and its owner. And there are a number of factors that go into selecting the best toilet for any boat: boat size: power resources, holding tank size vs. flush water consumption, availability of accessible pumpout facilities, whether treatment is an option or not, who’ll be using it—only adult "seasoned salts" or children and frequent landlubber/guests, space available, and your budget…even how long you plan to keep the current boat. That's an important point, because the person who asked the question--and to whom I replied--is in coastal waters where the discharge of treated waste is legal, and his boat is big enough to have to power resources to support a treatment device. ...his choices aren't limited to various means of storing waste aboard, he can flush it and get rid of it--by FAR the best solution to dealing with waste aboard HIS boat, in HIS waters...and what I recommended. But those on "no discharge" inland lakes don't have that choice. For some, the Airhead may indeed be a better choice than a marine toilet and holding tank or a portapotty...or it may not be. There's still the matter of sufficient power, peat moss storage, venting etc, to consider, along with the owner's budget. So I suggest you update your website ASAP to include the corrections you posted here, and hang around to answer specific questions...starting with mine:1). According to your own website, the urine storage tank holds "4 days' use per person." Am I wrong in interpreting this to mean that 4 people aboard for a week will fill nearly two urine tanks each...a total of 8 tanks (7 of which must be purchased separately?) full of urine that have to be stored aboard somewhere by the end of a weeklong cruise. 2). If carrying them off the boat and pouring them down a toilet or a portapotty dump station is the ONLY way to dispose of the contents, that's a lot to carry!Your comments?

[Steve Dion]

Fred:Here is the Raritan Engineering link.http://www.raritaneng.com/

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

between threads, so I'll try again: According to your own website, the urine storage tank holds "4 days' use per person." Am I wrong in interpreting this to mean that 4 people aboard for a week will fill nearly two urine tanks each...a total of 8 tanks (7 of which must be purchased separately?) full of urine that have to be stored aboard somewhere as they accumulated during a weeklong cruise in waters that don't offer access to open to sea to dump them overboard? For instance, the Chesepeake Bay or the Great Lakes...all inland rivers. How much does each tank hold--not in estimated days worth, but in gallons/quarts/ounces? What is the cost of additional tanks?

[Geoffrey Trott]

>Peggy’s question: According to your own website, theurine storage tank holds "4 days' use perperson." Am I wrong in interpreting this to meanthat 4 people aboard for a week will fillnearly two urine tanks each...a total of 8tanks (7 of which must be purchasedseparately?) full of urine that have to bestored aboard somewhere as theyaccumulated during a weeklong cruise inwaters that don't offer access to open tosea to dump them overboard? Forinstance, the Chesepeake Bay or theGreat Lakes...all inland rivers. Answer:I’ve answered your question below,however, I am not sure how applicablethis scenario is to the habits of coastalcruisers. I can’t imagine going a fullseven days without stepping off of thevessel at least once. Particularly withfour persons on board for sanity’s sake,to fill up water tanks surely if anyone onboard wants to take showers. But alsoto take in the sights. Why,in theChesapeake alone there are so manyinteresting harbor towns and islands,Rock Hall, Oxford, Smith IslandGalesville and not tomention...Annapolis. I find it hard tobelieve that any cruisers wouldn’tautomatically include any number ofspots for their itinerary. In any case let’stake a look at the options and see whatwe come up with:Let’s assume your scenario has filled up8 Air Head Bottles each holds 1 gallon. This is approximately 80 uses by my andPractical Sailor’s testing.Lets put 80 uses into a standard pumptoilet. You’ll pump about 1 gallon eachtime so that is 80 gallons. Add 28 moregallons for solid waste, (one“contribution”/person/day). Perhapsyou are more efficient and you pump halfa gallon each time. That is still 40gallons. You could pump it dry and useless water I suppose, although, if we takethe recommendation in “MarineSanitation: Fact vs. Folklore” , P. Hall:“...always be sure (to) flush the headsufficiently to push all the sewage out ofthe hose and rinse behind it”.  This is under the heading “SanitationHose” and the recommendation comes incontext of reducing hose odor. Sodepending on how far the tank is fromthe head you are probably bound to agallon or more per flush if you takePeggy’s advice.Another scenario is (of course you’ll payfor it in dollars and complexity) purchase of a high efficiency vacuumtype toilet. If memory serves me rightthey use a pint each flush so here is themath:80 liquid uses * (16oz flush water + 12.8oz urine) 2304 oz/128= 18 gallons.Then the solid uses:28 solid uses *(16 oz flush water + 8 ozturd) 672oz/128=5.25 gallons23.25 gallon holding tank required withhigh efficiency toilet.So lets summarize:Flush toilet 54 to 108 gallons weighs430-860 pounds. If it’s in the bowwhat is all of that weight doing toyour sailing efficiency? Vacuum or high efficiency toilet 24gallons weighs 192 poundsAir Head Dry Toilet 8 gallons 64pounds in 8 pound increments and anot nearly full tank of solid materialquietly and odorlessly decomposing,(just leave it in the boat till it fills up). I guess it really depends on what yourboat can carry. Most mid sized sailboatsmay not be able to fit a 24 gallon hardholding tank. The Air Head Dry Toiletwill allow smaller boats to carry muchmore, and bigger boats......you can also integrate our system withan existing holding tank for capacity thatis hard to beat, see below.>Peggy’s question: 2). If carrying them off the boat andpouring them down a toilet or aportapotty dump station is the ONLYway to dispose of the contents, that's alot to carry!Answer:Is it? The scenario had 4 persons. Ifeach person carries a gallon in each handit’s actually pretty manageable. Thebottles have carrying handles. Besides many marinas provide carts to carrythings off of boats and additionally thereis no waiting in line at the pump out on abusy Sunday assuming you can find apumpout that is working. But....The Air Head Toilet website alsomentions that the urine may be integratedwith a holding tank. And remember,there is no flush water, so you have nowvastly expanded your holding tankcapacity. Now from our scenario above ifyou can fit:108 gallon holding tank in your boatthe Air Head DT will give you 1080liquid uses. 24 gallon holding tank 240 uses. Any time any of our customers starttalking about buying more than 3 of ourbottles we recommend the holding tankintegration feature which in its simplestform could flow via gravity to a tank andvent through the Air Head DT ventingsystem, or pump upward and vent perPeggy’s advice. No other system willhold as much in so little space.Or If you don’t integrate with a holdingtank and you run out of bottles you canuse standard gallon milk jugs in a pinch. So the system is versatile so it can beadjusted easily to suit your needs.>Peggy’s question:How much does each tank hold--not inestimated days worth, but ingallons/quarts/ounces?Answer: 1 gallon or 4 quarts or 128 oz. >Peggy’s question:What is the cost of additional tanks?Answer: $26 I invite you all to ask further questions.Regards,Geoffrey TrottGeneral Manager, Eos Design LLC

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

I think you'll be surprised to discover how many people enjoy spending a week beached on an island or anchored in a cove or just gunkholing...getting away from the pressures of civilization. 4-5 days is even more common...we'd often spend long July 4th weekends rafted with other boats in a cove on Lake Lanier ("no discharge" inland lake), dinking to shore to play on the beach, floating on rafts...just relaxing. We also drank a lot of beer, which resulted in a lot of urine output too! :-)

[Fred Ficarra]

Peggie, I like to stay out on the hook for TWO MONTHS. It's all done on our H34 Epitome', because of the watermaker and the extra fuel that allowes us to carry.

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

A week aboard at a time is about all the time off most people can take.Living aboard on a mooring or an anchor and dinking to shore to go to work every day doesn't count...you COULD bring the wee-wee jug with you...and that COULD be a better option than being forced to go to a pumpout. Otoh, engines and rigging need regular exercise...going to the pumpout at least provides an excuse to start the engine occasionally.

[Fred Ficarra]

Peggie, The last time I remember complaining about my life, was in the '80s and that was really a complaint about the weather. And that complaint led to a 10 year odessey to the Carribean. As far as running engines, we run ours twice a day at anchor to make water, pull down the 'fridge and charge up. Sometimes we even run the air conditioner. Everything depends on the engine. Stop by our boat at anchor in Desolation Sound and I'll bar tend. Oh, we are going to install a LectraSan. It is a perfet fit for our boat. Thanks again for the great advice. Fred (ps you've seen our web site, right?)