Rudder Downhaul, Group Project

[Bill and Nancy Berg]

When we bought our H260, I had Sailnet order in the Clam Cleat for us. At that time (3 yrs ago) they brought in several extras, since I had mentioned it on the Hunter Sailnet list.they may still have some left.

[Brigg Franklin]

I would like to propose a group project, here on hunterowners.com, to improve the rudder downhaul system used on the 240/260 water ballast boats, with a swing rudder. This is a less than perfect system, on a great boat, that good minds should be able to improve. 1. The first problem is how to best get the rudder down. The block and tackle inside the rudder tube is not very efficient, and on my boat requires me to stand on the rudder to get it in the vertical down position. In a 05/08/02 photo article John Revenboer shows a small winch mounted on the rudder tube top connecting assembly. This might be a good solution but I think a small "boat-winch" mounted vertically with a cam cleat might be more useful. The problem is what happens if/when the rudder strikes something, like the bottom. The cleat, line and rudder could all be badly damaged. This brings us to problem number two.2. What kind of release mechanism could be incorporated into the system to allow the rudder to swing up to horizontal and still be retrieved after impact. In another photo article on 08/08/01, Jeff Peltier shows a spring assembly attached to the stern rail. I would be concerned about bending the rail, fingers in the spring and the "non-finished" look of the whole assembly (sorry Jeff). You could move the spring inside the 2&1/8" ID tube, which is 28" long between the tube top and nylon-bearing, thru-bolt, (maybe). Also possibly use some sort of break-away connector or tie an extra 6" loop in the downhaul line inside the tube. (see picture)I propose we start a brain trust, here, to come up with ideas to improve these two problems and possibly get Hunter Marine involved to develop a "professional" solution that we could use, and they might even incorporate in new boats. I have several pictures of the rudder assembly on my personal sailing web site, and will try to fabricate and photograph any unique solutions that seem to have a chance of working. Who knows, if this works maybe we can improve several systems.Anyone interested?Brigg

[Michael Bell]

I gave up on the rudder hauling system – removed the line that tended to get caught between the side plate and the rudder.To lower, I stand on the top step of the swim ladder (feet stay dry on this ’98 H26) and push the rudder down and tighten.To raise, loosen the bolt (the rudder floats to horizontal) and I lift it to vertical.(I will admit I’m 6’ 6” and have more reach than others may).A couple of caveats.If it were rough, I’d cleat myself in and probably end up with wet feet.In a pinch, you can raise the rudder from horizontal with the boat hook from the cockpit.I’ve never had to do either.One last note – I swapped the two bolts (the axils for the rudder and the plate tightening bolt). The bolt that tightens the rudder is now the axis bolt. Keeps the rudder down in place over a long period of time.

[Jeff Peltier]

Your right, it looks like an after thought, but really quite effective and doesn't put an excessive load on the stanction. If I pick up some weeds or run aground the spring gets close to the top rail, but not over. It sounds like you should loosen your nut about 1/4 turn if you have a hard time pulling it down. Also, if the line is slack when you drop the rudder, it can hook on the side, so check that if it binds. Certainly that concept could be incorporated into the design to make it look alot less like an add-on.Jeff Peltier

[Al]

I almost didn't want to put my name on this half-baked suggestion, but here goes. How about linking the centerboard to the rudder with a line of some sort? The weight of the center board as it gets lower should be able to pull the rudder down. Also, it should kick up (as the centerboard does) if bumped....

[Calvin]

When I had a Hunter 170 it came with a jam cleat system that was supposed to allow you to release the rudder when it hit something. The only problem was that the pressure on the line was so great when it came under pressure (wind blowing 15 knots and the rudder grounded) that it was impossible to remove the line from the cleat. I installed a device that would automatically release the cam cleat when the rudder hit something. I can't remember exactly what it was called but it worked like a charm. I don't know if this device is made in a heavy duty enough version for the 260 but if it is it will solve this problem.

[Brigg Franklin]

Jeff, until you mentioned the spring reaching the upper stern rail I had not figured out how the spring worked. I was visualizing it being pulled down from the rail rather than up. In the pictures I thought it was attached to the eye bolt to keep it out of the way while at the dock. It is a nice idea, but I hope we can take it a step or two further. How do you get your rudder down, Armstrong power? I do loosen the nut, with the long handle, before dropping the rudder, but it wants very badly to float.Al, no idea is dumb, it just needs to be taken further, like how would you route the line from the keel to the rudder?Calvin, I like your idea of a cam cleat with a release. Can you describe how it worked and where you obtained it? Could you set the release presser?I'll attach a scan of the factory manual page on the rudder assembly for those of you without the book. Keep up with the hair brained ideas, one of them might grow hair.Brigg

[Bob Fliegel]

What a great idea to pool all this knowledge.I've noticed you didn't mention that idea of using a wooden dowel sheer pin. After pulling down the rudder a small wooden dowel is inserted in a small hole drilled through the rudder and the two plates that hold the rudder in place. When enough force hits the rudder the pin sheers and the rudder pop up. My neighbor, Alan, has done this to his H26 and I think he was very please with how it works. He picked this idea up on the HOW.As for myself, before getting my H260, I was a Hobie 16 sailor for the past 25 years. The way their rudders work is excellent. After all, a zillion Hobie Cats can't be wrong.I believe the key is the rudder itself! Having a rudder with positive bouyancy on this boat is a mistake. I would prefer to have a rudder that does not float (or have to be hauled down) but one that sinks under its one weight and, thereby, requires only minimal force to keep it fully forward against 6 knots of water resistance. With such a non-bouyant rudder, when you hit the botton, the rudder would just drag itself along the bottom rather then floating to the surface with a complete loss of helm.This is the strategy that I will pursue.Unfortunately, though, this will have to wait until next winter. Whatever self confidence I had developed on working on my boat has been totally destroyed by your, and Miss Peggy's, severe tongue lasing on the portable holding tank idea last week.One thing I did accomplish already, to make my rudder more "user friendly", was to switch the rudder tightening clamp, previously located on the starbord side of the rudder (on the outboard motor side) to the port side. I always found it difficult bending down and trying to reach between the motor to tighten the rudder. Now, while I am standing on the port side (over the ladder) after I push the rudder down with my foot and haul it down the rest of the way, I can just reach down and tighten the clamp. I have often wondered if this was just a mistake with my boat or are all H260 rudder clamps installed on the starbord side?By the way, I have never had and problems with pulling down the rudder on my boat and, compared to furling the mainsail, motoring with an outboard or minimizing holding tank odors, I consider it to be one of the least challenging tasks on the boat. The trick I was taught from Scott at the "Boat Locker" is after lowering the rudder to its floating position on the water, while standing in the entrance way, over the folding stairs, begin pushing down on the rudder with your right foot, causing it to bounce, or bob, in the water. Continue pushing down harder and harder so that the rudder goes deeper and deeper. At one point, give it a real hard push with your foot and pull up on the halyard.Best Regards, Bob.

[Brigg Franklin]

Sorry bob for the thrashing on your gas can holding tank. I only wanted you to give the idea a second look as I thought it has some hidden hazards. I do like the wooden dowel idea. There is already a hole in the stainless bracket that holds the keel, for pinning it in the up position. You could drill another hole in the rudder in the down position and use a wooden dowel instead of the metal one, used for the up position. You would just have to have a spair if it broke. Sort of like the pin in a prop for when it hits bottom. (note to self, buy another pin for outboard prop.)On moving the nut/handle on the pivit bolt over to the port side how did you get around the two welded blocks that hold the bolt head? I can't get a picture to load tonight.Brigg

[Bob Fliegel]

Dear Brigg, regarding the two welded blocks that hold the bolt head on the starbord side of the rudder clamp, the welder who did the job for me just removed them and put them on the other side. I now have the same set up but just transposed.Regarding the sheer pin, I should have mentioned it would be important to use a soft wood, such as pine that is easily replacable (Home Depot - wooden dowels) and does not require too much force which would damage the rudder. Even then, the cummulative effect on the whole drilled through the rudder might still be damaging to the rudder. Perhaps a stainless steel sleeve, glued in place with 3M 5200, through the rudder hole might be a good idea.Regards, Bob.

[Tom]

My 1999 H260 was delivered with a down haul line running up through the rudder post to a block, also in the rudder post and the control line coming out the top of the rudder post. An up haul line runs from the rudder cleat to a point on the aft end of the rudder.There is no tightening hardware, as others have mentioned.During my first launch, I couldn't get the rudder to go down at all, and I could tell something was binding in side the tube. I was very surprised to find the block in there, esp. since it was installed to provide no mechanical advantage. The upper control line was tied to the block, the lower line was tied to the block at one end, the rudder on the other. The block was simply a piece of hardware tied in line and fouling on the through bolts!My solution was to remove the block altogether and simply run the down haul line from the rudder, up the rudder post, to the cleat at the top of the rudder post. To get the rudder down, I simply step on it to get it started in the right direction (from the swim ladder platform) and pull up on the line. My shoe seldom gets wet.My boat stays on a mooring, and I always secure the rudder in the up position when leaving the boat to reduce wear on the helm hardware, as recommended by Hunter.Now about the bungee idea. In order to get some kickup action in case the rudder hits bottom (or something) an elastic section -- even a spring, I suppose -- could be tied in line, inside the rudder post. Another idea is to use a light tie down line that would break under enough force. I'd still keep a heavier line in parallel, but loose, to give you the ability to pull the rudder back down and retain steerage after the "safty" line broke.Food for thought.fair winds,Tom

[Brigg Franklin]

Tom, the block inside the rudder post gives a 2 to 1 advantage when pulling the rudder down. Obviously someone goofed or sabotaged your downhaul system. I would recommend reinstalling the block the correct way, if you still have it. Stepping on the rudder seems to be the way a lot of us get it into the sailing position. I put a picture of my block assembly with the first post on this thread.What does your rudder pivot on? On my 260 the pivit bolt has a nut with an arm welded on to tighten or loosen the sides of the metal frame. It should be easy enough to take the nut off your pivot bolt and weld a metal arm onto it.On the bungee cord idea, I like it because it is reuseable, but have a couple questions. How would you secure it to the rudder and what would you secure it to on the top of the rudder post? It seems like you would have to have it extra long so when the rudder was up you could still get to the upper end of the bungee. Would you use it with the existing line or instead of the line, or hook it "in-line" with the regular line tied to both ends? Would the bungee be strong enough to pull the rudder down and still have any spring left? You might be able to hook the bungee to the bottom of the block in the tube and then into the rudder cavity (if you still had the block). Definitely a new idea to toy with. ThanksBrigg

[Pat]

Brigg, this forum is a great idea for helping to solve a persistant problem with the H-260. With the combined ideas of Jeff and Brigg, I think that placing the properly sized spring inside the rudder post has a good chance of success and it will be hidden from view.We need a critical number though. I will be able to calculate the needed spring constant (rate), length, initial tension and deflection but I need a number for the force required on the downhaul line (vertical pull) to hold the rudder fully down during maximum rudder drag conditions (hull speed). Does anyone have a spring-type fish scale that will cover up to about 50 to 75 pounds (about 23 to 34 Kg for Mark down under)? If that could be used to measure the maximum force needed to just hold the rudder down during maximum boat speed, I can work out the specs needed for the spring with some safety factor thrown in. If you can make such a measurement during a raging beam reach, please let me know the result. Also, please let me know if you have a pulley inside the rudder post that will cause it to be a 2 to 1 purchase or if your downhaul is rigged direct to the rudder. Mark, you are in sailing season down there, could you help on this one?Pat

[Jeff Peltier]

We're iced over up here, but I can tell you that the spring I used is probably tensioning at about 20 pounds. Keep in mind that half a wrap over the top stanction offers some static resistance and plays into the equation of holding the rudder down. More wraps would reduce the required tension even more.Jeff Peltier

[Brigg Franklin]

I've been busy building. I took Tom's idea of the bungee and went one step beyond to a "rubber snubber". It's one of those black thick rubber lines with the "S" hooks on each end that you secure tarps down with. It's 21" long and streatches to 30". I bought two "D" shackles from WM, took off the S hooks and pushed the screw through the rubber eyes. I then shackled one end to the block at the top, and the other end to a stainless eye bolt at the bottom. I purchased a 1"x1/2"x1&1/2" block of hard rubber and cut it into a 1" Dia. half circle, drilled a hole through the center and screwed in the eye bolt, with a washer and nut under the rubber. This was all inserted into the 1" hole in the rudder top, as I assembled it. The picure will make this much clearer.The rudder weighs just 25 pounds and the single rubber snubber will lift the rudder by itself when fully extended to 31". I think two snubbers in parallel will be closer to what is needed, or about 50 pounds of lift. I will need to get two larger "D" shackles for the two snubbers. For safety, I also tied the origional rudder line in parallel with the rubber snubber at 31" length. Since it is 9" from the bolt going through the rudder tube to the bottom of the tube, and 28" to the top, I should have plenty of room in the tube for the 21" snubber and block (I hope). It should also allow me to swing the rudder up without stretching the snubbers. Pat, I will be looking to see if you can get any figures on the pressure required under full sail. Jeff, I hope your "guesstimate" is close or poof goes my idea.Any suggestions from anyone?We still need to work out a better method of hauling the rudder into the down position, especially for my wife.Brigg

[Mark]

Hello PatI will be sailing on Sunday morning so will take my fish scale with me and try to get a reading. Although the forecast is for only 8-14 knot breezes.Report back Monday! (I hope)

[Nils Anderson]

I find it easy to lower the rudder. With the lines released and the rudder floating horizontally, pull and release. The slightly submerged rudder will leap out of the water and its weight will submerge it again; that's when you pull a little more, then release. After about four times the rudder dives in to about 45 degrees, it is then easy to pull the line the rest of the way. I would suspect this technique would work without the 2-1 purchase; but take maybe 6 bobs.On a side note, I have often wondered whether a floating horizontal rudder gives more manuvering control when docking; but might be tricky when backing down.

[Jeff Peltier]

One thing I have noticed about my rudder vs other 260 rudders is that mine is a little heavier and just barely floats. It doesn't appear to have any moisture inside as I have drilled a couple test holes to check. It appears from listening to all the conversations, the extra density also makes it easier to pull down into position.Jeff Peltier

[MArk]

Hi Yawl,Clamcleat makes a device specifically for rudder applications. (related link)It acts like a normal clamcleat until a shock load causes it to flip up and release. The trip point is adjustable. Best of all, it resets quickly without tools or spare parts.I'll start a separate thread to get opinions from other boat owners too.Happy sails *_/),MArk

[Brigg Franklin]

Now that we have the kick-up problem solved, (Thanks MArk), how about getting the rudder down.Is there a safety or other good reason the rudder floats? How about adding some lead weight to the end of the rudder to give it just a little negative buoyancy? I've noticed that the bottom of my rudder has started to get sanded off a little from sailing in the shallow parts of the river. Those places seem to change from day to day. Would there be a problem with epoxying a strip of metal, lead or other to the bottom of the rudder to give it just a little negative buoyancy? That should both make it easier to lower and protect the glass at the bottom.Brigg

[Brigg Franklin]

I just tracked down the Clamcleat, Auto Release Cleat. Since it's made in England you have to get it through the Seadog Line, Part number 002570. Seadog only sells wholesale, so I still had to go through West Marine special order. The retail price is $23.40 plus $5 for special order plus $5.95 shipping. It's not cheap. You can call WM special order at (888)888-3221. Your local WM store probably can't/won't order it for you. I think it's what we are looking for. It holds solid until it reaches the pressure you set, then releases. I ordered one, so we'll see how well it works.Brigg

[Steve Kamp]

Brigg, as a new 260 owner I have followed this thread with interest. My prior boating experience has been with canoes, I can relate to the metal bonded to the rudder as many canoe paddles have a strip of steel or other durable material, such as kevlar, bonded to the bottom edge to protect the end of the paddle when it is used to shove off from a shoreline or fend off from rocks. I believe it would be possible to bond a similar strip to the lower leading edge of the rudder.Steve Kamp

[George Benson]

West Marine shows the Auto Release Cleat for $20.95 and it's in stock. Here's the link:http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=51281This looks like a good fix for the rudder issue and will not clutter up the stern.

[Brigg]

Thanks George for the WM information. When I put that URL in WM said the page was not available, so I used the WM part # 1158443 in the search box and it came right up. However, it said they had one in stock, AND I ORDERED IT!! Actually, I got my local WM store to order it and they said the East coast warehouse has 15 in stock. The price was only $20.99 with no shipping or special handling, so George just save me about $15. Thanks..On the issue of adding a metal strip to the bottom of the rudder, I have sent an E-mail to Hunter Marine asking why the rudder is buoyant and if I add enough weight to just make it sink will I be doing any dammage to a design parameter. (I'm sure I'll void my warranty.)When we get done with this I'll post a photo/project on this site. Here is a picture of the cleat and the manufacturer's web page:http://www.clamcleat.com/speciali.htmBrigg

[Brigg]

I received the following E-mail today from Greg Emerson at Hunter Marine:Mr. Franklin,Adding a metal strip to the bottom of the rudder would not create a dangerous situation but I would be concerned that the modification, when complete, would seal the rudder. Otherwise you would take a chance of water intrusion into the foam core. The reason that the rudder is buoyant is to make up-haul of the rudder easier. In previous years the rudder was cored with a structural polyester adhesive and the rudder was much heavier than the current foam cored rudder. During that time we received complaints that the weight contributed to the difficulty in raising the rudder. New Hunter 260's in current production are designed with a plastic pin that is put inplace to hold the rudder in the down position while under way but can easily be sheared off if the rudder were to hit something. Therefore the chance of rudder damage is minimized.I hope that this information is helpful. ThanksGreg Emerson-----------------------------------I think I'll see how much weight it takes to just sink the rudder, and then how hard it is to haul it back up. Then decide if I want to permanently attach some weight and seal the rudder.We may have to follow up on this thread with a later message as it seems to be sinking to the bottom very quickly now.Brigg